Episode #1: How to judge equity as an employee?

European startup ecosystem is booming and with it the innovation is following. The US has successfully awarded equity to employees for years, now Europe is following. In this episode we discuss how to judge the equity offer you or your friends received and tell you the questions you need to ask the employer.

Transcript

Špela 0:18

Welcome. Welcome in this space, we're going to discuss everything related to startups.

Tamas 0:25

Startups is our jam and that's what we're going to share stories and topics about.

Špela 0:30

In this episode we will look at the equity specifically and it's going to be all from the employee perspective. That's a very interesting way to start it off because we can go even deeper into it, into the next ones, specifically about investors and companies. so if you plan on or you know, someone or you want to work in a startup, I would really recommend that you listen to it because we want to lay down. How to consume the topic of equity and even learn how to judge the meaning and value of it.

Tamas 1:03

Super, interesting topic. I mean, I guess we were learning these days that more and more companies, even in Europe introduce equity as part of the remuneration plan. So I think it's very exciting to uncover this topic as one of our.

Špela 1:18

Yes. And we hear a lot of questions from our colleagues. We hear a lot of questions from other people in startups, and usually we can offer quite good answers. So we wanted to share that work here.

Tamas 1:31

To give you an idea of what we're going to talk about today I would say that's one of the major topics is going to be uncovering equity as much of an artifact of imagination as it is reality. We are going to talk about that a little bit more.

Špela 1:46

And it's a great time to be in startups. everything is rising. Companies are becoming more and more, equitable, let's say. And it's important to understand those terms. So calculating the value, what does vesting have to do here or the strike price or even dilution. Every startup goes through dilution rounds. So it's important to know where you are and what to derive from it.

Tamas 2:11

And we uncovered lately that these are topics that not even people who currently work at startups necessarily know the answers to.

Špela 2:19

And do we have a couple of seconds to. Say who we are.

Tamas 2:23

Yeah, who are, you Spela? No, I'm actually gonna jump into courtesy of introducing you. Cause you're so dear to me I, when I was thinking about this, I wrote to myself two things and those were kind and honest and that's because. For me, these are two of the most valuable human qualities. and you have them both. So I respect you and collegiately love you for that. and I think you're also extremely experienced and knowledgeable in all topics of equity and startups and also beekeeping. So that's, that's useful

Špela 2:55

stuff. Thank you so much. That means a lot coming from you because in my notes to you, I wrote that you kind of stole my intro for you. So I think it goes right back at you. And I wanted to add besides, too much being honest and kind, and, there's a lion amount of bravery. So once you add that together and you realize that he's also thoughtful you come to a person that. Probably the best person to know for people to topics. So naturally gifted academically educated in the same space and a great conversationalist which you will see from these conversations.

Tamas 3:34

Now you set the bar so high that it's going to be a challenge to jump in, but thank you so much for your words. We covered it a little bit in the introduction, but maybe it's worth turning back our minds a little bit to why this topic should be important and interesting to anyone in startups or close to working with startups. And that's really because, All startup employees would be exposed to the topic of equity in some shape or form either they have it or they want to have it, or they don't want to have it, but they don't know what they have.

Špela 4:14

Yeah. And the, the first reason why we think that equity in Europe so relevant right now, we could kind of associate it with the growth of the EU. EU start up scene. So I'm referring here to a very recent sifted article. and the TLDR from there for me was, you know, the growth in Europe is going to be hired in north America and Asia. And we all know how booming Silicon valley is. So if you're just comparing the growth, that's a very good measure of it. How much is going on in Europe. So yes, we're measuring how much they're going to be investing. So the growth and investment, but that is a very good indicator. So people are getting support for what they're doing in Europe. and I, agree with what Mathias from speed invest said also in the sifted article. That Europe is basically just catching up to the rest of the world. So I really tend to agree here. I see a lot of parallels. my wife and I even have a game. So when, whenever we visit the us, the S we point things out that maybe one of her family members does already. And we're like, Hmm. What do you think? Two years? Three, but in terms of equity and ownership here were more like decades behind and it's booming.

Tamas 5:35

Yeah. I agree. And I think Europe is an interesting scene to, to begin your company's journey in because it's such a fragmented market culturally and socially as well, that if you can stand the test of time where your product can get to your kind of proof of concept in Europe, then maybe you're quite well positioned. Take, the U S or Asia?

Špela 5:57

Yes, very good point.

Tamas 5:59

And I wanted to mention also that, recently PWC, my dear former employer also added the research with startups. I mean, just the concept of PWC, one of the big four, doing a research with startups that sort of detail already tells you something. But, one of the findings was that, 84% of term sheets now created an option pool, which is, which is incredible.

Špela 6:23

That is a very good number to hear,

Tamas 6:26

and I don't even know what the other 16% were doing. So if you were in the other 16%, then go rush back to your investors and get your fair share for the option pool. The other interesting thing is when we go down one level lower, is that in 46.5% of the cases this pool was created post money. so it affected both the investor and the founder. Which for me makes a lot of sense, because as an investor, I would want to know that that the employees are dedicated to the company that they buy into the vision and that they're remunerated with this mixture of, hope and an actual tangible cash.

Špela 7:09

I found that very, very visionary actually, because so far. you could say that they were putting the, I'm going to use the word burden of employee equity on the founders side. But if you see that also the investors are realizing, Hey, rewarding employees is beneficial. It makes business sense. And you can see that supported now in the term sheet.

Tamas 7:31

Absolutely. Exactly. Yeah. I'm very happy when something intangible comes through in the maths kind of gives me that confidence that yes, we are committed for the right thing. and interestingly, the pool size was around 10%. Or more, which is also, a great sign, and this is also something we're catching up with the U S and so I think, you know more about this than I do, but I also hear about, pool sizes of 20%, especially in the Silicon valley.

Špela 8:00

Yes. Yes. I've, I've personally seen some 30, so there's always room to grow, but, considering that we started at zero 10 is.

Tamas 8:11

Yes. And maybe just a reflection of what a pool is. It's all the equity that is left on the company's balance sheet to be distributed amongst employees. Is that right?

Špela 8:21

Equity for employees. Yeah. Perfect. and I want to share a fun fact about just this employee ownership, because it's older than you would expect. Yeah, it goes all the way back. Not in the same form, but the founding fathers of the United States even saw it as fair. They used the word fair. it, it was used. There was the revolutionary war. And then there needed fishermen needed federal assistance. And the founding fathers said, yes, we will help you. But only if you include the employees in the profit sharing. Unbelievable. Right. Inspiring, inspiring.

Tamas 9:03

They were kind of thinking that if these employees also benefit from the cash, then they would contribute more to society, both in an economic and social.

Špela 9:14

Also Franklin was very involved in this type of fairness. He helped people get set up. He was kind of like an angel investor. He would give money, they would set up the shop and then they would work it off with sweat equity and then they would take over. the shop

Tamas 9:29

I can't believe they left this out from Hamilton.

Špela 9:35

I mean, yes. It's very interesting because Hamilton and Jefferson, I think were complete opposites, but this is what they said. Yes. We agree on that. Fairness economic sense. Let's go. Yeah. And I think the last thing that makes our current environment perfect for, you know, employee ownership might even be connected to the generational difference.

Tamas 9:59

true, I agree. agree

Špela 10:00

Yeah. I think we see it in every day, even in every family. It really used to be maybe from not even thinking about, oh, this is my job, or I'm grateful, grateful to have a job. It's now moving towards, you know what, I'm going to decide if I want to work with you. And I'm also going to decide based on how you treat me and the world around you. So it just looks like we have far lower acceptance levels for the status. Cool. And if began with the millennials, it's definitely continuing with the gen Z. And again, if we look from the business sense, these two groups are already the majority of the workforce, and that's going to move up to 60 or 70 by 2030. So in the business sense, this may make sense to. And see what works in that. That's how you attract us. Yeah. Yeah. I completely see the value of them. Yeah, so it makes sense. It makes business sense. It makes moral maybe even fairness sense. So we can see that we, the younger generation are kind of demanding. We're also starting our own companies and we lead them that way anyway. Yeah. You also heard that we have the monetary support now in Europe. So we can expect that the employee ownership is just going to continue to grow

Tamas 11:22

amen to that. the next part we labeled stay at a company for four years or insert your investing period here and become a millionaire, or a gazillionaire. And I think it's a good title because essentially this is the promise that that most startups are selling. They're telling you. Don't go to work for a strategic, a strategic consulting firm or a, for a big pharmaceutical or whatever your degree kind of angle is. Come work for us. We'll give you a much lower salary, but on a 5, 6, 10 year horizon, you will be much better off financially. And perhaps your life quality will be better as well. Although the life of a startup, Chris is not exactly a walk in the park. Most of these

Špela 12:04

true, very true. I think to kind of add on top of this, there's also, I would say a nice feeling to be part of a company to own a part of a company and employee ownership can really give you that. Now. We're not going to go into the deep explanations of all the employee instruments. There are a couple of terms. I would maybe even call them universal and we need to explain them so that we can go through the rest of the episode and explain how through those three terms, you can understand your equity.

Tamas 12:43

I was thinking, you know, maybe these apps like Robinhood and maybe in Europe I don't know what you use with Panda, for example. Also kind of brought closer to you what it means to own a piece of equity in a publicly traded company. So maybe now you're kind of more emotionally accustomed to owning a piece of something. And that's why also that you expect that.

Špela 13:10

Yes, very good point. It's more attainable. So. Once it's trainable, it becomes expected

Tamas 13:17

sorry. Yes. You were telling us about all the very important need that we need to get

Špela 13:22

accustomed to. Yes. Yes. There's basically three things that I'm going to say, not too deep. It's going to be vesting price and dilution, and I'm going to start with vesting and you to mesh. You're gonna. Support me with questions if you have any, but I'm just going to start to explain how I would usually explain to other people what these terms are. So vesting, I think that's a very important term to understand because each and every company is going to attach vesting to your grant. It's nothing scary. It just means that you have to wait a couple of years or in some cases, months before you can reap the benefits of the. Right. And to me it's really helped to understand why three, why would I even have a vesting schedule when I'm already working for the company, right? They don't put my salary on investing scale schedule, but it's there for a very good reason. So equity is very important to a startup. They exchange it for money usually. So it's important to habits and not just give a hundred percent of it away. For no reason and why I say no reason. So let's imagine a scenario. You are hiring a C level position. So it is a very honest expectation to say, you know what? This person is going to expect a big package, a lot of money, a lot of equity, and then you hired them and you say, okay, we're going to give you 5% of the country. And we're not going to attach any vesting to it. So they come the next day, walk away. You didn't attach any investing to it. So they just walked away with 5% for working zero hours. It would be absolutely horrible. And you might have to balance it out to companies, put the grants on a schedule. And it's just means that it's gradually, gradually released to you piece by piece by piece. So if it's a four year vesting schedule, I have to wait four years to get the full 5%. But after the first year, I might already have a quarter of it. Then the next thing that is plays a very important part as well in terms of value is going to be the price, right? So most often grants have a strike price. That's a different thing than a share price. So a share price is something that. The investors pay for or maybe the stock exchange if you're talking about the public companies, but the strike price is something that's attached specifically to the options or Phantoms and so on. So the only thing we need to understand about this right now is that the value relevant to you is the difference between the two, right? Because the strike price I have to pay and the share price is what someone else pays to me for getting my share. Yeah. So if I have a strike price of ten-year-olds and the current share price is 10 euros, then I have actively hold something that's currently worth zero euros to me

Tamas 16:30

In this scenario would kind of just get the right of purchasing shares at the market value.

Špela 16:36

Yes.

Tamas 16:37

And that's not as valuable as if you were, you know, if the spread between the strike price and the, and the market price would be bigger, I guess

Špela 16:46

I would actually say here that just the opportunity to have shares is already a good thing. But it shouldn't be presented as something of value. Currently, right. So you can just say I have a hundred chairs. That's 10 euros. So I have a thousand euros worth of shares because I have to still pay 10 per share. So I have a hundred shares with zero upside right now.

Tamas 17:10

In such case you kind of only maybe benefit from the capital gains.

Špela 17:15

Yes. You, you benefit from the growth of the whole company. Yeah, there's, there's quite a lot of. Oh, this can go very deep because in some cases it also makes sense to have a strike price at the market value, maybe for tax reasons. But at the same time, it's just good to know what is it to you right now?

Tamas 17:37

I meant to ask you already at the vesting, but I'm curious what you see because you work at a company that deals with equity, right? So give us a bit of insider information on there.

Špela 17:49

The most, wild ones I've seen is definitely some people have got zero vesting and it was for quite large chunks of equity. Or maybe it was. Super accelerated. So in comparison, you had someone with four year vesting and then another person with just six months. But I, I that's really, really an outlier really? Mostly it's three or four year vesting and it's just linear. So each year that you stay, you get a quarter or a third.

Tamas 18:21

And how about the strike price? What do you see there? Yeah, depends on the jurisdiction. If companies can, they usually put it at the nominal value and then some other cases where the taxes come in, they put it at the latest valuation, just so that you don't get taxed on this upside, you know, cause there's an immediate upside between nominal value and the current share price. So you could be taxed on that. Yeah. So I think usually companies are trying to optimize for your, for your best interest. And in some cases when that happens, for example, if you have a hundred shares that are. I don't know, the strike price is nine and the current share price is 10. They usually compensate by giving more shares because the difference is so little. Okay. So when you interpret the number of shares you have received in form of a grant, you should also kind of appraise the difference between the strike price and and the marketplace.

Špela 19:17

Yeah. Yeah. It's very important. The last thing I wanted to mention is dilution. And why it's also because it's everywhere. Right? So especially in the startup world, everyone gets diluted. I would say very often, right. Founders, investors, employees. It's a very normal thing that happens. I also want to start with a founder with a hundred shares. And that means that his company with one euro per share is worth a hundred euros. That's it? She owns all of it. Then she says, you know what, I need more money. I'm going to talk to an investor. And then they agreed to give two, to give her money. If she gives them 20% of the cost. Right. But while they're there, they're discussing all of this, they're also defining the price and they define that they're going to buy all of these shares for two years per share. They come up with the new amount of shares. She still owns her 100. The new investor gets 25, so that when you divide 25 by 1 25, you get 20%. And all the shares are now worth two euros per share. So even though she now has 80% of the company crew's shares are now worth two euros per share. So a hundred shares time to 200. So even though she owns less, the value of it is higher. So in my interpretation, dilution is usually a very good sign because it means that more people want to be part of your company. It just needs to have this understanding for the longterm, that once you get a grant that is worth, I don't know, 1%, if you want the company to grow, you will eventually have to give up this percentage ownership, but the value is going to go up. So at a certain point, it makes more sense to switch from percentage thinking to value things.

Tamas 21:19

I understand. By the way, if any of the listeners now are trying to click back to the beginning of this mathematical example, I'm with you. I fully understand. I also have to kind of read it through to, to understand it. And you mentioned presentation, you mentioned that maybe it's worth switching from a percentage, thinking to a, to a value thinking you said, I wonder if that developed a little bit more on this?

Špela 21:45

I think this is a very good segue into how to understand. What the company gives you, right? Directly on what you said, it depends on how early you join, because they will present it differently. In the beginning, the company is not valued that high, so it makes more sense to present the percentage you'd own better than how much it's. Right. So 1% sounds. And is it better represents what you're given? Right. Because 1% of the company is, you know, it can be a lot, 5% is a lot. And the monetary value is just not there. But if you join a bit later I would say closer to series a where devaluation gets to tens of millions, the company can start presenting the value as money, because when you say 0.1% of that, it becomes into tens of thousands of euros.

Tamas 22:49

Right? So what would they do instead of giving you the percentage?

Špela 22:54

So what they would do is they would say, Hey, you have a hundred thousand dollars of salary, and then we're going to give you 80,000 euros worth of grants.

Tamas 23:06

And that would be calculated via what share price.

Špela 23:10

That is exactly the question that you have to ask. So they say they can say 80,000 and then you can ask them, okay. On which evaluation is it the latest one or is it the future one? Is this a projection? In my opinion, it should always be explained, right? You should say, this is the current valuation. Or we had the last valuation a year ago. So this is not up to date, but we're getting closer to the new one. So we kind of are showing you both, this is the old, and this is the new and the thing that makes it very fair because you can then, you know, judge the growth as well and see what they're presenting if it's true, or if it's honest. So you have 80,000 at, let's say current valuation.

Tamas 23:54

I understand. I'm wondering if I can quickly share a personal view here as well, which is that At first, I thought there was a discrepancy at how younger stage companies would present you with a percentage. And then they would switch to this either number of shares or value of shares value that at a certain point in time. But now I kind of think it, it very nicely represents the role that you will be playing in the company because the earlier you joined, the more of a founder, you are really. Your journey type stuff. And it'd be more similar to a founder than if you joined. For example, after series a series, they might be that like big mark in history.

Špela 24:36

Yes. Yes. Even in the most basic sense, you know, if you raise series a, you've kind of proven that you have the product market fit. So that's one of the most important confirmations for the startup.

Tamas 24:50

I guess you convinced someone that you have product market fit rather than prove that you have it. It's one and the same

Špela 24:59

true. So we kind of explained one side of the interpretation of the grant, right? We said, what is the value of it? So we said, okay, it's 80,000 at this current valuation, but there's another sub question here, which is, huh. 80,000 in total or 80,000 per my vesting year. Because like I said before, salary is explained always. Yeah. but is that mean that the grant is yearly? So that's a question that you have to ask, right? Because if they say you have a four year vesting and 80,000 in total, that means that you would get getting 20,000 per year and that's can help you then calculate your total compensation. So it's a hundred thousand plus 20. So per year, one 20, it's just ballpark without this, this counting and future value and so on. And. The last thing, it ties back to the strike price and the share price. It can really be anything you can either be asked to pay zero for 80,000 worth of grants or even 80,000 for 80,000. So just circling back also very important thing

Tamas 26:05

I do have one question for each screen on now that we discussed, your three most important segments, which would have been. The vesting, the price to dilution. If I left after a month, would I leave with a one over 48 of my shares?

Špela 26:20

Yes. That's a very good question. Every vesting schedule has its own terms, right? So the only thing we mentioned so far is. You know, the total length of it so four years, but of course there's two other terms that are very important here. One is cliff, which is what you're mentioning right now. So to go back to the first example of someone joining and getting 5% you have kind of like a, I wouldn't call it probationary period, but it's very close to it. And they define cliff with it. So I say, I have a four year investing in one year cliff, which means that if I leave any time before the first year is done, I don't get any of the grants. But if I stay for the first year, then I get, I don't know, a quarter of it, depending on the type of testing.

Tamas 27:13

I understand. And you've mentioned one year is this usually the length of the cliff period that you see?

Špela 27:19

Yes. Yes. That's the most common.

Tamas 27:22

Okay. Good to know. And, now coming back to the linear buildup of the episode we do have a couple of Adventist topics as well. And maybe we wouldn't want to go into them now, but I'm wondering what, what is more there to discuss.

Špela 27:40

A couple of things that always go through my mind when I see the equity plans is okay, how sustainable or what is the chance of me actually cashing out a devaluation that they're presenting because this is money, but it's in, it's locked in a grant. So someone has to give me the opportunity to actually sell it. So, how do we, how do you judge, if you would even be able to sell.

Tamas 28:12

That's very interesting.

Špela 28:13

And then there's always, always the question of, you know, salaries, salary. I can buy something today with grants. They are monetary value, but I can't buy anything with them. So how do I value that? How do I value that something is only going to be become cash in the future?

Tamas 28:32

Right. Absolutely. After taking quite a lot of risk, right. It's not very linear straight forward. I, I don't remember the exact numbers, but not a lot of startups will make it into the a hundred million. Valuation and, and even less will become a unicorn, even though that you see it perhaps on sifted every day or every week that someone again has made the unicorn status. Any, anything else, but that is interesting around this topic.

Špela 28:59

I would say that a very interesting take was from index ventures, which I think we should definitely link in this episode. They have such a good, good overview of what's been going on and what are the benchmarks? And I would always recommend anyone. Just read through them or even play with some of their scenarios. It's very educational.

Tamas 29:19

Myself, I also wanted to build on something you said before, which was the presentation just coming back to that again, because for me as a. I mean, I, I studied a bit of psychology. I wouldn't call myself a psychologist by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm, about psychology and I can see how, when you're presented with this, let's see, you say, see a grid, right? Like that's how we usually present salary. When you make an offer, you show the salary component and then you should an equity component. And next year equity component, there would be probably different. Evaluation scenarios, series a series B and so on and so forth and next to moonshot, which is most likely a unicorn that will be a massive number. Right. And and I kind of think that information is consumed by different part of your brain, then salary component. You're you latch onto it. You're like, wow, that's a, that's a really crazy vision. But you, you don't really attach the probability to it.

Špela 30:26

It's really a tricky part for us humans in the air that we live in, I would say with so much capital talk around us and so much money being thrown. Our faces that just someone showing us, Hey, you might be worth 10 million. It's like, oh, dream state turned on. I'm living the dream. I'm in the clouds. It's not even skipping the whole 10 years of steps. Yes. I already searching for properties in Toscana. For a long time, I kind of thought that this was irrational. And for me, irrational, maybe sometimes carries a negative connotation to it, but then I have a reflection about this and I think it's not necessarily true.

Tamas 31:07

I think that a lot of people think that we should all think like scientists, even with krona scientists were the ones who were put on this pedestal, like telling us what is true and what is not right. Like there's and I think you, you said this to me, you know, Private conversation before that the place of religion is currently taken over by science.

Špela 31:28

The pure belief.

Tamas 31:31

Yeah. And I think that's similarly to how we would idolize idols, religious men the same way. Now we started to idolize like scientists like this or rational beings, the whole economic costs that always make the right choice. and these people, when they look at these scenarios, they would say, ha, that is very unlikely to be true. So don't send me the scrap. But, but I don't think it's true. I don't think rationality necessarily rules over everything else. And through this research, and it's actually something that entertains me a lot. These days, I came across two books, which I would highly recommend to anyone, which is think again by Adam Grant and also useful delusions, by Shankar that data and both of them go into the positive sides of a delusion even if you know that the information you presented carries a certain probability of, of becoming reality and even if you know that the probability is close to zero, it could still deliver a lot of value for you as a thought. Imagine if, if none of our forefathers believed that there was a, a rather more ripe. Apple around the corner, and then another thing that comes to mind is, is yesterday talking to one of my colleagues, she pointed out to me that without this belief, it would never become a reality.

Špela 32:57

That's such a good point in such a good parallel to start. You know people that have taken over the world with their startups knew nothing about the startup that they were starting usually. Right. That's where it comes from. Just believing that you can do something better. And before we wrap up, I would be very curious to hear your opinion of what value do startups deliver. Why did we need this segment? It's the belief that we can do something about the world to be better.

Tamas 33:32

Okay. Yeah, I guess I agree. And I also would add that maybe the, time component is a little bit more advantages than if you were a large multi-national that, that is a bit slower to move on this topics.

Špela 33:46

And it seems that money would make the world move, but it turns out that's not the only component, right?

Tamas 33:54

Yes. Yes That's a beautiful notion. I think that we can wrap up I think there are a lot of topics that we can leave for next time. I mean, I'm super curious to learn more about the deeper segments of equity that you are. So highlighted previously. But I'm just kind of trying to wrap my head around what we learned today.

Špela 34:14

Yeah. Maybe we can repeat it. TLDR. So I would say that it's definitely a good time to be in startups in Europe. So we have the growth metrics that are supporting it. We have the employee ownership, that's making it more attractive for people to join. And then of course, how do we think about equity? What you take into account? Is it you know, value, vesting, dilution? How do you understand what they present to you? Of course there's many more clauses. We're probably going to go through them in the next episodes, but I think these are the three.

Tamas 34:50

I think the one power that we can encourage people to take for themselves is, being honest about how much they understand about the topic and seek out someone, if that is the foundation. Or a colleague or a friend who knows more that, they can talk to about it. I guess that's, that's probably a good way of going about this.

Špela 35:10

Yeah. Yes. And I really like your honesty part. I think you, you had a very good thought about it. I would encourage you to share you were taken honesty and the value and how you see it,

Tamas 35:22

I guess it's being honest about the balanced of monetary needs. You think you want, or you need, and the impact you want to have. And the honesty part comes in that I don't think there is a. Correct answer because to me, you might want to do very good with the money that you wish to acquire very soon. So I wouldn't frowned upon if you want to get rich quick so to speak. But what I do think is very beneficial. If you're honest to yourself about this and you seek out opportunities that fit your profile from this aspect

Špela 36:00

I love the thoughts. I love that thought yeah just my last concluding thought would also be sometimes you might be the one that's more educated. You can imagine that the founders or. Other people that may have may have joined the startup earlier. It doesn't necessarily mean that they know more about equity than you do. So if you're the one that feels inspired about it, you can ask them questions or even offer insight, you know equities everywhere. It's going to become more prevalent and it's important. More. And when people understand that

Tamas 36:29

and I would actually use that notion a little bit selfishly, now that I would encourage any listener to share feedback with us because it's a new venture for ourselves as well. And we would love to learn, would love to become better. So if you have any feedback, please shoot it our way. Thank you for listening to this first episode of our podcast, we'll be back next month. In the meantime, we wish you all the very best.